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 Post subject: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090405 16:58 
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This would rate as my biggest/darkest secret at the moment.

I am a cruel, unabashed, social two-face who is using people. In this respect I am identicle to LJ, except it's friendship instead of romance. The difference between me and LJ is that she is a psychic vampire who goes out trolling for victims, requires victims. I'm a psychic vampire who is 100% reluctant in his feeding, never initiating and only following. I'd much rather go without blood all-together. But intentional ignorance is not an excuse, I'd never accept it from her so I cannot in good conscience accept it from myself. Being a partner in these activities, going along with these things and playing these games, is deceitful and cruel when my mouth is full of white lies. It's my responsibility not to decieve people like this.

All I really want is for people to leave me alone. I don't want to hurt anybody or affect anybody, I don't want people to have feelings for me or for what I do to change what they go through. My intentions are altruistic. There was a glorious time when I was autonomous and I was just a worker bee who people could respect, yet would not mourn. But I've been stuck in this locale for far too long and people are starting to depend on me.

I am too nice. That's no credit to me, since it is all 100% a lie, an act, a front, a deception. I'm a pretty genuine person, except that I don't live in the "real" world. Like LJ, I don't even realize what I'm doing. To me it's just a game to master, because it all seems like a joke to me. I don't relate to this social thing, my heart of hearts sees it as laughable. So I'm standing there saying in my head "yeah, okay, I'll go along with this. I can **play the role** of the upstanding citizen, good friend. That's what they want, right? So I'll do it." And I'm good at it, for some reason or another, beats me. Maybe people find me pitiable, they like to try and put me on the social path.

Maybe... I'm taking this too seriously. Maybe people don't care that much. But you know what? That's probably word-for-word what LJ said right before unwittingly crushing me. The question is, what do I do? Do I continue... being nice? Filling my conversations with 'harmless' white lies to make people feel mildly good about themselves? Or do I stop the lies, become "myself" so as to not hurt people down the line, when they come calling me and I want nothing to do with them. I'm not even sure how I would go about being meaner to people... I'm pretty honest except that I feign mushiness when people get mushy and I play an advocate position no matter what people have to say, up to a point. But somebody might think that they're making a lifelong friend. I don't understand the mushy stuff. I'll listen to Tom Petty and Regina Spektor all day... but that stuff is hypothetical. I feel like a conehead or your typical alien visitor, I can grasp the concept of human emotion but I cannot feel it.

Dunno why. Since I have such a love for social fantasies maybe it has to do with feeling limited by certain institutions in my life, or some form of social anxeity. But I suspect it's just the fact that reality is crap. I'd rather listen to Petty than hang with him.

Somedays aren't yours at all.

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"If I could take it all back now, I wouldn't. I would have did more shit that people said that I shouldn't." - Marshall Mathers

"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090405 21:08 
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First off, I would stop referring to myself as a psychic vampire. Labeling, role play, and social expectation can have a huge affect on your emotional or cognitive reactions. Look at the Stanford Prison experiment, for example. By identifying with a specific role or condition, you may unconsciously develop those behaviors. Without knowing what a psychic vampire is, I can assume that it is not entirely positive. Unless you were diagnosed as such (and even in that case, a person is never their diagnosis or syndrome, they are always a person), I would discontinue using it.

Consider a more positive term to replace it with. Think of a quality a person who you hold much respect for possess. Consider emulating that, or thinking about it when you refer to yourself. The simple act of closing your eyes, relaxing, and focusing on that word and the traits associated with it is a form of self-hypnosis.

As for lying...

There are certain contradictions in your wording. That you are a loner who considers social interaction as a joke, but you lie for altruistic purposes. Lying is most likely not altruistic - It's to protect yourself from confrontation.

A probable biological basis for lying is survival, or to gain resources you are not entitled to. Consider the emergent social reasoning for lying: control. You are attempting to obfuscate reality in effort to create a more favorable reality. What reality do you chose to create? Lying is also considered a protection against pain, or fear. Are you afraid that you will not meet your own expectations when confronted by others? What are the consequences of not meeting these expectations? Injury? An inability to be social? Could you be afraid of being alone?

Consider these points:
-When men lie, it is most often to promote a greater image of themselves.
-When women lie it is usually to make the other person feel better.
-Extroverted people tend to lie more.

I think your final sentence brings up a good point:
Quote:
Since I have such a love for social fantasies maybe it has to do with feeling limited by certain institutions in my life, or some form of social anxiety.


You seem to shy away from the idea of being social, but you admit a desire to be. These possible institutions you speak of could be your perceptions of social people. What are your feelings about extroverts? Give some examples of extroverted people, or people who fit that role in your mind. Give some of introverted individuals. Do you feel that you should be introverted? That there is a social expectation to assume that role? Which do you identify more with?

Let me give you an anecdotal story: There is a gentleman I work with you has constructed himself to be a specific stereotype. He listens to violent music, has long hair, wears alot of black, and is intentionally rude to other people to be a loner. He is ultimately miserable, and is very successful at this. On the rare occasion that I invited him out with others, he had a glowing personality, engaging conversation, was funny, thoughtful, and participatory. Unfortunately after that evening, he went back to the recluse he assumes he should be.

Can you see the importance of role play and identity? Unknowingly the gentleman I mentioned has shifted his life toward what he assumes he should be, but in the process has made himself miserable. It is unfortunate that the hero in alot of movies and literature is this loner, unsociable, self driven character. That has a major cultural impact, because people try to identify with that role. It may make an interesting character for fiction, but in reality people are social animals and cannot exist like that. We have a bunch of confused young men who think they should be the silent hero type, and that dependence on others is a weakness. These are false assumptions.

I would continue writing. It seems cathartic for you. That's a good thing. Consider one final point: this is a public forum that has an audience. How much of what you write do you assume is for those who know you? What kind of image do you think you may be trying to express unconsciously? Everyone has a tendency to do this, but when you are cognizant of it you have more an opportunity at self introspection.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090406 00:05 
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Move Underground wrote:
First off, I would stop referring to myself as a psychic vampire. Labeling, role play, and social expectation can have a huge affect on your emotional or cognitive reactions. Look at the Stanford Prison experiment, for example. By identifying with a specific role or condition, you may unconsciously develop those behaviors. Without knowing what a psychic vampire is, I can assume that it is not entirely positive. Unless you were diagnosed as such (and even in that case, a person is never their diagnosis or syndrome, they are always a person), I would discontinue using it.

Consider a more positive term to replace it with. Think of a quality a person who you hold much respect for possess. Consider emulating that, or thinking about it when you refer to yourself. The simple act of closing your eyes, relaxing, and focusing on that word and the traits associated with it is a form of self-hypnosis.


That's a good point, but I called my self a psychic vampire for factuality's sake. I'd have no shame in calling anyone who acts like me a psychic vampire, I shouldn't give myself special treatment, that would be disingenuous.

Quote:
There are certain contradictions in your wording. That you are a loner who considers social interaction as a joke, but you lie for altruistic purposes. Lying is most likely not altruistic - It's to protect yourself from confrontation.

A probable biological basis for lying is survival, or to gain resources you are not entitled to. Consider the emergent social reasoning for lying: control. You are attempting to obfuscate reality in effort to create a more favorable reality. What reality do you chose to create? Lying is also considered a protection against pain, or fear. Are you afraid that you will not meet your own expectations when confronted by others? What are the consequences of not meeting these expectations? Injury? An inability to be social? Could you be afraid of being alone?

Consider these points:
-When men lie, it is most often to promote a greater image of themselves.
-When women lie it is usually to make the other person feel better.
-Extroverted people tend to lie more.


True, true. I lie out of fear and for self-image. But the altruism is my desire to be away from people entirely, so that I can't harm anybody. The lying is for me.

Quote:
You seem to shy away from the idea of being social, but you admit a desire to be. These possible institutions you speak of could be your perceptions of social people. What are your feelings about extroverts? Give some examples of extroverted people, or people who fit that role in your mind. Give some of introverted individuals. Do you feel that you should be introverted? That there is a social expectation to assume that role? Which do you identify more with?


nah, sorry... I have no desire to be social. Do I look down on social people? Yes, good point. But that ain't changin'. I have no intention of nurturing my people skills. I tried in vain to be a social human for approximately 20 years, mainly at the end of highschool when I was going out every night. I know all-to-well that being social is not a fun activity for me. If anything, the heavy social-focus of most media (particularly music and TV) is what causes something which might be construed as a desire to be social (rather than a pre-existing social desire being nurtured by the media). It's just fantasy, like playing a war game or something. It's fun to play the war game on my couch with an Xbox but it sure as hell isn't fun to actually be in a war. To me, there's nothing redeeming about spending time with anyone, outside of a very, very elite few. I've nothing against people, it's just that being social isn't fun for me.

Quote:
Let me give you an anecdotal story: There is a gentleman I work with you has constructed himself to be a specific stereotype. He listens to violent music, has long hair, wears alot of black, and is intentionally rude to other people to be a loner. He is ultimately miserable, and is very successful at this. On the rare occasion that I invited him out with others, he had a glowing personality, engaging conversation, was funny, thoughtful, and participatory. Unfortunately after that evening, he went back to the recluse he assumes he should be.

Can you see the importance of role play and identity? Unknowingly the gentleman I mentioned has shifted his life toward what he assumes he should be, but in the process has made himself miserable. It is unfortunate that the hero in alot of movies and literature is this loner, unsociable, self driven character. That has a major cultural impact, because people try to identify with that role. It may make an interesting character for fiction, but in reality people are social animals and cannot exist like that. We have a bunch of confused young men who think they should be the silent hero type, and that dependence on others is a weakness. These are false assumptions.


Maybe he enjoys his dark life, and only agrees to go out because of social pressure, and only acts like a glowing personality because he has found himself in a position where he is expected to be social. That's my case, at least. Depending on others may not be a weakness, but it's not something that would be beneficial to me either. There's not that much anybody has to offer me. I've got my shit together.

Quote:
I would continue writing. It seems cathartic for you. That's a good thing. Consider one final point: this is a public forum that has an audience. How much of what you write do you assume is for those who know you? What kind of image do you think you may be trying to express unconsciously? Everyone has a tendency to do this, but when you are cognizant of it you have more an opportunity at self introspection.


none of what I write is for the people who know me, since they'd hate me if they read it. With posts like this I am pretty much trying to portray myself as a conscientious person.

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"If I could take it all back now, I wouldn't. I would have did more shit that people said that I shouldn't." - Marshall Mathers

"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090406 10:42 
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IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
Do I continue... being nice? Filling my conversations with 'harmless' white lies to make people feel mildly good about themselves? Or do I stop the lies, become "myself" so as to not hurt people down the line, when they come calling me and I want nothing to do with them. I'm not even sure how I would go about being meaner to people...


If the lying that you're doing is bothering you, I would recommend stopping it. Then again, I'm not really sure what you mean by "harmless white lies to make people feel good". Would you be able to give an example or two?

I don't think it's an issue of you learning how to go about being meaner to others. That shouldn't be your goal. I think your goal now should be directing or deflecting conversations in which you feel pressured to lie, if that's truly what bothers you/truly what you feel you should be doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090407 21:46 
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Kashi wrote:
IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
Do I continue... being nice? Filling my conversations with 'harmless' white lies to make people feel mildly good about themselves? Or do I stop the lies, become "myself" so as to not hurt people down the line, when they come calling me and I want nothing to do with them. I'm not even sure how I would go about being meaner to people...


If the lying that you're doing is bothering you, I would recommend stopping it. Then again, I'm not really sure what you mean by "harmless white lies to make people feel good". Would you be able to give an example or two?

I don't think it's an issue of you learning how to go about being meaner to others. That shouldn't be your goal. I think your goal now should be directing or deflecting conversations in which you feel pressured to lie, if that's truly what bothers you/truly what you feel you should be doing.


It's things such as... pretending to be enthusiastic about whatever boring crap people have to tell me, agreeing with people on whatever innane rants they constantly have to tell me, and getting all mushy "I love you man" when people do that stuff with me because apparently they, like, feel some connection with their fellow humans or something like that, for some reason. I wouldn't know. And the biggest lie of course is going out with people when they ask me and I don't have an excuse not to go. I don't want to do this stuff but I respect the fact that these people respect me enough to ask, so I go along with it...

I'm pretty much a horrible shrew, but I don't act that way to people. The question is, should I express the horrible grossness of my heart & soul to the world or should I continue to put on a pretty front? I dunno if I'd have the courage to express the truth anyway.

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"If I could take it all back now, I wouldn't. I would have did more shit that people said that I shouldn't." - Marshall Mathers

"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090407 23:28 
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So basically you're caught up on lying and think that that makes you a horrible person, but you think that if you stop lying and show that you're not really interested in every single thing every single person has to say, that makes you a horrible person?

You're using loaded words to encourage us to go in one way; I don't think that disagreeing with people or not being interested in something they're interested in is being a "horrible shrew". There are decent ways to go about expressing that disinterest and there are terrible ways. It's your choice.

I don't think that this is anything unique to you either; pretty much everyone comes to a point in life when they stop and say "Do I want to be the popular guy or the honest guy?" Some go one way, some go the other, and they cope either way.

So pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090407 23:59 
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Tell me if this is relevant or not.

Last Saturday night I spent a little bit of time hanging out with some people, one of which I sort of know, just from seeing quite a few times over a few years, the rest I had either never seen before or only on a few occasions. I was happy to be able to hang out with them, because, even though I'm more comfortable by myself, I get lonely, too. Anyway, I didn't really know these people *that* well, and so they go on with talking about things and making jokes and stuff, and frankly, I'm not really being pulled into the experience. So I feel really uncomfortable, because I don't want to tell these people, "you're boring me", because it was nice enough of them just to ask me to tag along, and if I wanted to be comfortable I'd just go my separate way. But then it's a lot of effort continuously feigning just enough interest to try and show these people that I actually am grateful for them including me in their reindeer games, so to speak. You know, laughing at jokes and stuff. The odd thing is, if I was hanging out with my friends (the scarce few that I have), that I know really well, I know, from previous experience, that I would really enjoy myself. But in the same situation with unfamiliar people and their unique interests and foibles that I don't know too well, I'm just in this very uncomfortable situation, because I don't want to be uncomfortable (acting like I'm having a good time), but I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable either (letting them know I'm not having a good time)...

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:03 
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Scott wrote:
So basically you're caught up on lying and think that that makes you a horrible person, but you think that if you stop lying and show that you're not really interested in every single thing every single person has to say, that makes you a horrible person?

You're using loaded words to encourage us to go in one way; I don't think that disagreeing with people or not being interested in something they're interested in is being a "horrible shrew". There are decent ways to go about expressing that disinterest and there are terrible ways. It's your choice.

I don't think that this is anything unique to you either; pretty much everyone comes to a point in life when they stop and say "Do I want to be the popular guy or the honest guy?" Some go one way, some go the other, and they cope either way.

So pick.


Well, it's more than just the white lies. It's the mushy stuff. Building friendships, that people pour their hearts into, basd on mountains of lies, that's horrible. I know how horribly devestating, even life-changing doing that crap can be, since LJ pulled a similar trick on me. I'd like to think that my supoort was good for what it's worth, while it lasted, but from experience I know that may not be true. Up until recently I was fine, at an arms length with people. But lately there have been a couple of people getting too close, I think they might have "fallen in friend" with me. It might seem like a lesser issue compared to lying about romance, but people obviously take friendship very, very seriously in some cases.

And whether or not the lying makes me a bad or good person, I'm definetly a horrible shrew. I hate the world. I hate society. I despise humanity and resent it for continuing this cycle which I consider to be a torturous enslavement of all mankind (since life involves pain and non-existence involves none, all the pain in the world is the fault of all us people who continue the cycle and help mankind exist). If I was honest at work, I would be yelling, screaming, and attacking people verbally. 'Course, if I was really 'honest,' I guess I'd just walk out.

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"If I could take it all back now, I wouldn't. I would have did more shit that people said that I shouldn't." - Marshall Mathers

"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:10 
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IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
stuff


So stop it. Do what makes you happy.

zharth wrote:
Tell me if this is relevant or not.


I've been in that situation before, and it really, really sucks. Sometimes something clicks and I find a way to connect, but usually it doesn't happen. Sometimes people notice that I'm uncomfortable and make an effort to include me. But most often, I just leave.

It's not a failing on your part; it's just something that people do. When you're around people you know, you tend to talk about crap that you're familiar with, and in the process, alienate the guy you don't know. Some people are cognizant of this fact and will try to include you, but most people just don't realize it's happening until after the fact, if ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:28 
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zharth wrote:
Tell me if this is relevant or not.

Last Saturday night I spent a little bit of time hanging out with some people, one of which I sort of know, just from seeing quite a few times over a few years, the rest I had either never seen before or only on a few occasions. I was happy to be able to hang out with them, because, even though I'm more comfortable by myself, I get lonely, too. Anyway, I didn't really know these people *that* well, and so they go on with talking about things and making jokes and stuff, and frankly, I'm not really being pulled into the experience. So I feel really uncomfortable, because I don't want to tell these people, "you're boring me", because it was nice enough of them just to ask me to tag along, and if I wanted to be comfortable I'd just go my separate way. But then it's a lot of effort continuously feigning just enough interest to try and show these people that I actually am grateful for them including me in their reindeer games, so to speak. You know, laughing at jokes and stuff. The odd thing is, if I was hanging out with my friends (the scarce few that I have), that I know really well, I know, from previous experience, that I would really enjoy myself. But in the same situation with unfamiliar people and their unique interests and foibles that I don't know too well, I'm just in this very uncomfortable situation, because I don't want to be uncomfortable (acting like I'm having a good time), but I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable either (letting them know I'm not having a good time)...


Yeah, that's pretty close. The guy I keep hanging out with is a guy who doesn't like to do the same things as me, but I hung out with him at first because I was so impressed that such a legit dude like him would be interested in an artsy creep like me. I frequently am deathly afraid of realizing that I'm the biggest hipster ever. But I've institutionalized the fibs out of fear of people reacting poorly. I guess maybe I could have more mutually enjoyable friends like you, the main problem seems to be that even the outcasts & loners WAnT to do social stuff. I guess the conundrum is, the people I would vibe with: the people who actually prefer sitting in their room to going out, I'll never run into them, they'll never try to get together with me. 'Course the psychological imbalance makes drags out of almost any interaction, even those times when LJ just sat with me doing my usual routine, because being with someone fucks with my mind so it's not really an enjoyable thing. Other than with you, oddly. I really don't know why about that... other than maybe because we live togther in a roundabut way and that destroys so much of the pressure.

Scott wrote:
IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
stuff


So stop it. Do what makes you happy.


Ugh, talk about over-simplification. :| Is that what you would tell Hamlet when he is considering death, or Obama if he was considering nuclear war? If I did what made me happy, I'd ruin the lives of the people who care about me most. I'm not going to do that.

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"If I could take it all back now, I wouldn't. I would have did more shit that people said that I shouldn't." - Marshall Mathers

"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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