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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:34 
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Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone in every situation -- THAT'S oversimplification. In your case, you're saying that doing one thing makes you unhappy. So the simple solution is to stop that behavior. You're also being overly dramatic about the situation: "Oh, I like baseball!" 'What? No, I think baseball sucks dick!' "Oh god, Doug, you never liked baseball to begin with, I'm going to go kill myself now because you lied to me!"

Yeah, no. The world doesn't revolve around you; there'll be rough spots, but things will work out in general.

If your friends and the people close to you really think that you mean anything to them, then they'll understand... unless you're a total dick in how you go about doing it. You can be honest and you can be a dick. Or you can be both.

I've met plenty of people who've been perfectly honest in their lack of interest about things that I'm interested in, but it hasn't stopped us from getting along or even being friends. I've met people who've been incredibly interested in the same things that I like, but that hasn't stopped us from NOT getting along or being friends.

It's how you approach it.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:51 
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This is more than just interests. This is about the mushy stuff too. Why do you have to be condescending?

Me: Dude, I think you're a fucking awesome dude. But the truth is I prefer to be alone.
Dude: Wait, so you don't like hanging out with me at all? What about those nights we spet together? What about all that money I spent on you, dude? You don't wanna hang out? Then you're a fucking douchebag. **proceeds to tell people I'm a douchebag**

These are people's feelings I'm tampering with. I've been in these kinds of situations.

And I don't think 'the people who care about you will understand' really applies to cases of wantig to be perpetually alone and/or wanting to do any number of the things I want to do. I recall nobody being able to understand when I quit college, and I recall everybody constantly trying to force on me the idea that being social is the key to happiness. I'm not normal, it's not a point of pride or some shit, it's a fucking fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 00:56 
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If I sound condescending, it's because you've shown a penchant for being self-contradictory and overly dramatic in recent posts and I'm running out of patience.

You're "tampering" with peoples' feelings? Do they have no say in the matter? Are they just clockwork machinery where you stick in your reaction and they react in a given (terrible) fashion? They have no consideration, sympathy, or understanding of their own?

Because that's how you seem to see them... as simple, two-dimensional creatures who will react terribly to your withdrawal from their world.


Besides, if you prefer to be alone, then why are you so concerned about their reactions? Why did you bother lying to begin with to gather all of these people who will be absolutely broken husks of human beings if you leave them? It's like there's a fundamental schism in your thought processes on this topic that prevents any kind of reasonable discussion beyond "I feel for you" and "I agree". You have a problem and you don't want to solve it.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 01:07 
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Umm... right. You don't even read my posts (you MIGHT skim them) and then you make ridiculous suggestions that contradict major parts of what I've said. How many times in this thread have I compared this situation to the one between me and LJ in reverse? Do you think I consider MYSELF to be a 2-dimensional creature? I've not said anything about these people being 2-dimensional.

For gods sake, you don't think I would hurt people if I did what I want? Do you think it would take my family 2 days to get over my suicide? Christ. I'm not looking for yes-men discussions, I'm looking for people who actually read carefully what I'm saying and discuss that, rather than just injecting their squeaky-clean worldview into my life.

I'm leaving this board. Goodbye.

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"I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood really, and that's not a sad thing." - Fiona Apple

"It's alright, ma. It's life and life only." - Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 01:17 
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IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I hung out with him at first because I was so impressed that such a legit dude like him would be interested in an artsy creep like me.

I don't know if it's your personality or what, but as much as you might hate it, you are a social butterfly. People like you. They think you're interesting. They want to hang out with you. I don't understand it, myself. I'm a nice guy, I think people generally like me, too, but they never call me up and ask me to hang out. Aside from the scarce few friends I already have, people, as much as they seem to act like they like me, don't ever seem to make any kind of real effort to hang out with me or get to know me or whatever. Maybe it's because, in a social setting, I have the tendency to sit still and quietly, and just listen to other people talk, whereas you tend to engage yourself in that conversation and act all social-like. Maybe that's why people want to hang out with you. Because you're like that. Sometimes I feel like you and I, we were originally dolls whose heads and torsos were switched before either of us were born. I got the desire to be social, and you got the ability, and the end result is two unhappy misfits who are tragically incapable of getting the thing they truly want.

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
the main problem seems to be that even the outcasts & loners WAnT to do social stuff.

This is something that baffled me in high school. I thought the "outcasts" group would be right for me, until I realized they were exactly like the jocks and the nerds and everyone else in terms of how they hung out and related to one another. Where were the people with the true social deficiencies? I guess I never found them because they were hanging out in their own rooms by themselves, which is exactly what I was doing...which echoes your next point:

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I guess the conundrum is, the people I would vibe with: the people who actually prefer sitting in their room to going out, I'll never run into them, they'll never try to get together with me.

Yup... :(

IfTheLightTakesUs wrote:
I'm leaving this board. Goodbye.

I've never known you to back down from a heated discussion before. To put things in context, I get incredibly frustrated when I try to describe my own shortcomings and Scott responds with the same kind of one-liners ("just do it", etc.) he's using here, which are not only of little to no help, but also entirely missing the point of the problem in the first place - but I expect that kind of reaction from somebody who doesn't experience the complexity of the issue from a first-person perspective, and it doesn't mean we can't still be friends. At any rate, there's no need for you to leave the board entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 01:43 
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I used to do the same kind of shit, worrying about what everyone thought about me, and why I was putting up a front, and what it meant to be popular and how to stay close to the people important to me. It made me into a miserable mess of a person and led to some of the most miserable periods of my life.

Then, eventually, instead of waking up and thinking about the same old stuff, I decided to just go out and start doing shit. I decided that I would deal with the fallout as it came, if it came... and surprisingly enough, very little fallout did come. Sure, it's stressful sometimes, but I'd rather deal with stress resulting from something I actively did than live in a world of stress and indecision.

I honestly think that it's a fundamental dichotomy in the way that we approach the world... and if you want answers that appeal to you from your own point of view, then you need to find people who have the same basic philosophy as you. Otherwise the answers you get are not going to be the answers you like or want to hear. As long as those answers provoke some kind of reaction in you and make you think, though, something's getting done.

So yeah, my philosophy is essentially "If you want a change, make a change." It might be a bad change, but at least you got something done. When you're not changing, you're just dying. And yeah, those sound like a bunch of platitudes, but any philosophy will sound like that if you try to sum it up in a sentence or two.


Oddly enough, the Bible sums this up nicely.

Revelations 3:16 wrote:
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 01:52 
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Scott wrote:
I've met plenty of people who've been perfectly honest in their lack of interest about things that I'm interested in, but it hasn't stopped us from getting along or even being friends. I've met people who've been incredibly interested in the same things that I like, but that hasn't stopped us from NOT getting along or being friends.

I believe you're making a category error here. Everybody has things they are and are not interested in - that's expected. What's also expected of people is that they have some desire to share those interests with others in a social setting. That's what many people believe is one of the fundamental aspects of being human. So if you don't like baseball, or shogi, or eating meat, that's one thing. It's still expected that there are other things you do like, that you can share with people. But if you don't like hanging out with people itself, that's a completely different issue. And it's not that you don't like the people individually, or the things they are and are not interested in, but it's the situation itself that troubles you, that you want nothing to do with. So on the one hand, you don't like hanging out with people, but on the other, you do like the people themselves. And you're caught between living a comfortable life, by telling people to leave you alone, and being a huge dick to the people that like you (and that you possibly like), which is inevitably what would happen if you chose that route.

I apologize if I mischaracterized the issue at all, Doug, I was just hoping to maybe make it a little bit clearer.

Scott wrote:
you've shown a penchant for being self-contradictory

You might remember the point he made elsewhere about sounding self-contradictory. There are three possibilities here. 1) He's being self-contradictory, which is the route you appear to have taken. 2) You've misunderstood the meaning of what he has said. And 3) he lacks the proper vocabulary/insight to clearly state the things he really means. 2 and 3 obviously tend to go hand in hand, and I believe that's the problem here, moreso than him being self-contradictory (not that that's not still a possibility). We're talking about complex psychological issues involving hard-to-define subjective experiences, and even for a person with an impeccable vocabulary, it's a hard thing to impart one person's perspective onto another accurately. Then, consider who we're dealing with.

I'm not trying to to debunk all the statements you've thus far made, but I've had a lot of (frustrating) experience debating these sorts of things with Doug, and I can tell you, it's never as simple as it looks on the top layer. And feelings are self-contradictory at times, too, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 02:18 
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zharth wrote:
I believe you're making a category error here. Everybody has things they are and are not interested in - that's expected.


I was -- I was actually confusing Doug's situation with your situation, where people were talking about things that just weren't grabbing you.

zharth wrote:
What's also expected of people is that they have some desire to share those interests with others in a social setting. . . . But if you don't like hanging out with people itself, that's a completely different issue. And it's not that you don't like the people individually, or the things they are and are not interested in, but it's the situation itself that troubles you, that you want nothing to do with. So on the one hand, you don't like hanging out with people, but on the other, you do like the people themselves. And you're caught between living a comfortable life, by telling people to leave you alone, and being a huge dick to the people that like you (and that you possibly like), which is inevitably what would happen if you chose that route.


This is the part I'm not understanding in the slightest -- how can you like people, but not want to be around them? I can understand liking some people and only wanting to be around those people while disliking the general mass of humanity, but I can't even begin to understand liking someone and not wanting to be around them.

It's perfectly possible for someone to like you while you don't like them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with wanting to be alone when you want to be alone. You don't have to be great friends, or even okay friends, with everyone that likes you. You don't have to like hanging out with everyone in order to like hanging out with one or two people.

As an example, I've met a lot of foreigners here who apparently like me, though the feeling is certainly not mutual. I'll help them and talk to them occasionally if I've got time and am in a decent mood, but I'm not going out there to ingratiate myself with them and hang out, because I simply don't like them. Does that make me a dick? I don't think so. I'm a dick, but it's for other things entirely... and honestly, I don't care if some people think I'm a dick. I certainly know that it's justified at times.


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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 04:16 
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Scott wrote:
I can't even begin to understand liking someone and not wanting to be around them.

Here's a metaphor of sorts: imagine you have a really strong allergic reaction to cats. In that situation, would it not be possible to like a specific cat, or even cats in general, while not wanting to be around them? You like them, but being around them is painful for you. You don't blame it on the cat(s) - it's not their fault - and you don't want to hurt the cat's "feelings" by avoiding it and telling it to go away, but at the same time, that's how you feel inside, because you know that spending time with it is painful.

In the case I believe we're discussing, it doesn't even necessarily have to be people that the person likes, but people that like that person, care about him, and take care of him. People that do things for him, and people that enjoy being a part of his life. Yet hanging around with those people is painful - and it has nothing to do with the individual people themselves, which are, by all accounts, perfectly likable, but it's just a general dislike of being around people - like having an allergic reaction to them independent of how likable they are (or aren't). And so, being around these people is painful, but telling them to go away and leave you alone is a hard thing to do, because you do still care about them. Even if you'd prefer not to be around them.

Anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Evil Hypocrisy (Loner's night out)
PostPosted: 090408 04:50 
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The cat analogy makes the situation a bit clearer to me, though it still comes down to three basic choices... one, hang out with the cat and just accept the allergy problem; two, stay away from the cat; three, hang out with the cat but take breaks at time.

But this still doesn't address the lying problem, which seems like... I don't know, like you don't want to be around the cat and yet actively feed it treats, play with it, and generally cause being around you to seem like a really attractive option. That just doesn't make any sense to me -- either you want to be around it and you act like that, or you don't. Why would you encourage it to hang around you when you want it to go away?


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